It's "definitely" not!

[Erica Stone]

First I want to say that this email I got caught me on a really good day. My reaction may have been different otherwise...

I am in a mom's group that I take Tommy to regularly. There is a woman I met last summer, with a daughter about the same age. We got together one day at her house to have lunch and go swimming with the kids. Long story short, we got to talking and I told her about Matthew. She was wonderful about it and asked me lots of questions and let me tell my story. Tommy had a fun time and really liked her dog, a great dane.

Fast forward to this week. She hasn't been around really at all in the group, but showed up at an event the other night. We were catching up and she got teary and told me that her dog (who she just had neutered) got home from the vet and died the next day. She was really upset and we talked about it briefly. (NOTE*** I get it about being upset about the dog. I am a dog lover myself. I almost cried with her because I know what that's like - I've had dogs die.***) The next day, just trying to let her know I was thinking about her, I sent an email telling her how sorry I was, and what a sweet dog she had.

Here's the kicker - and I know some of you have had people say things like this to you. She replied among other things, "Thank you again for the nice note about Boomer. It is definitely like the loss of a child!!!!"

OK... not so much.

Like I said, she caught me on a good day. I'm pretty sure she totally forgot about that conversation we had last summer. I have had my dog die and I have had my child die, and they are DEFINITELY NOT the same thing. I thought about responding to that comment, but decided to let it go. Had she said it to me in person, I would have acknowledged her pain, but corrected her on her analogy. Crazy!!

[Heather Frackiewicz]

I'm sure she wasn't trying to hurt you, she's probably hurting a lot herself.

I've also lost a child and I've lost a dog, and while it's not the same - it still hurts really bad when the grief is so new and raw.

I would cut her some slack, she probably didn't mean to be insensitive.

[CrystalW]

UGH... people just don't think. I know she didn't mean anything but sometimes I want to shake people and scream "THINK WITH YOUR BRAIN!! YOU KNOW THAT THING INSIDE YOUR SKULL!!!"

somethings are better left unsaid. I think you did the right thing.

[carissa13]

Erica ~ that would be hard to swallow on a not so good day but good for you for just letting it go. Hopefully she just wasn't thinking. A lot of people consider their animals to be their kids so she probably didn't think twice about saying it. That is where the forgiving part comes into play!!

[linda]

Erica that is crazy I have had almost the same thing happen. I had shared Ethan with a co-worker once and the person said to me ~ I know how that feels ~ I lost my dog last year! I had no response ~ no reacation. I think I was in shock! Since then that person and I don't talk about much but work! Gotta love ignorance..................................

[Shelly]

I definitely don't condone people saying stupid things, but so many people cannot just say nothing.....
Maybe this the play group mom could not comprehend the pain and dispair that comes with the loss of child when you had your conversation, but now that she suddenly lost her pet thought that she connected with you on the pain level. But, I don't think you can "get it" until you lose a child....

Erica, I'm sorry you had to endure such a message.

[Amy Joy]

see...things like this make me so angry:mad: . maybe because its only been a month. I had to stop makeing excuses for the stupid things people say. The straw that broke the camels back for me was when a friend actually asked after i had told her the story of what happened " did you pick your 2 year old up alot?" So what? now its my fault thet my baby died?
Im sorry for sounging so mean, it just makes me so mad when people say such stupid things.
Erica, you are a stronger person than me, I think I wouldn't have been able to controll myself. I would have had to coment on her remark.

[Marianne Sisovsky]

I'm not condoning what this person said. There is absolutely NO WAY a pet is ever like a human child. But on that note:

I volunteered with dog rescue for several years. My husband and I even did rescue ourselves for about two years.

There are definitely a LOT of people who own dogs who feel this way. They treat their pets like they're children and spend inordinate amount of time and money on them (because they really do love them <---I'm not disputing this fact).

So while some people just have to say something, there are some people out there who, really in their hearts, feel they love their fur kids every bit as much as other people love their children.

[Marianne Sisovsky]

I'm also very sorry that someone said this and I'm so sorry for your loss.

[Jonathan@Angela]

Please remember that unless you have lost a child people do not understand the pain we feel. I lost a dog before my son and it did feel like I lost a child. After actually losing my son I felt a pain like no other. For most people the nearest thing to their heart that they will lose will be an animal. This is still no excuse for people who are insensitive.

[Cheryl Haggard]

Erica,

You know me...you just gave me another gray hair...lol!

[Kirk Kief]

So, Cheryl, your up to two now, huhh?

[Erica Stone]

The truth is that I'm not even upset by it... It was said by someone in her own pain, with no other frame of reference. I think that between all of us there have been some boneheaded things said to us and I thought I'd add this to the pile!

[Catherine Colgan]

I had this exact same thing happen to me...but my pain was fresh and I was very emotionally raw at the time. Let's just say that that person and I no longer speak (we weren't close to begin with...so not a big deal). People are crazy...that's all there is to it.

[Cheryl Haggard]

As Erica knows, we have had this discussion a couple of times. There have been times this week that I have really laughed. I had a similiar experience with a person, and it is a thread titled, Little Critters...Check it out if you can. I have really thought about this, and here is my take on it...REMEMBER, my take only...

After Maddux died, in February 2005, my female daschund that was 14 years old had to be put to sleep in March 2005. Then my male daschund that was 15 years old was killed by coyotes in August 2005. My point?

I don't sit around wondering what my dogs would be doing now if they were still alive. I don't sit around yearning for my lost pets, but I do for Maddux. Pets are animals, not your flesh and blood. They are not meant to be with us our lifetime.

After my dogs deaths, I went out and bought another dog to replace my lost pet. And REPLACE is the exact word. I love my pets as much as I loved my other pets, but it is a whole different kind of love. Yes, I mourned when they died, but I don't mourn anymore. My grieving is OVER!

I am the master, not their parent. They are here for my companionship. You CAN"T replace a child. Oh, sure, most of us can have ANOTHER child, but that child is NOT considered a replacement. You will love that new child, but it is a seperate love than the love of your lost child. I will grieve everyday for Maddux.

I am not saying that her grief isn't real, because it is. And it is far different, than our grief. Just like a person that grieves for a spouse...might say to us, "you don't know my grief..." And we don't. And I never hope to.

For some people, experiencing the death of a pet, this is the only grief they know. Let's hope it stays that way.

[Cheryl Haggard]

By the way, does anybody know if this is marked in the thread, of WHAT NOT TO SAY TO A PARENT THAT HAS LOST A CHILD? :p

[Kirk Kief]

.................

For some people, experiencing the death of a pet, this is the only grief they know. Let's hope it stays that way.
Cheryl, Thank you for saying this. I've started many times to express a similar opinion, but, stopped short of posting it because of the fact that I've not walked in your shoes, and wasn't sure if my thoughts were correct.
Obviously, with the loss of a child, or actually any loved one, you grieve and miss them for the rest of your life. A pet is grieved for and missed for maybe a month, and then you move on.
I'll copy this thread into the 'What not to say to a parent room'.

[Amy Joy]

Hey Cheryl, As a doula, I get a great magazine. It's call the International Doula. This month there is a great article called Grief and Loss-A Mothers Wisdom. It has all the do's and dont's of what to say and what not to say. I would love to post it. I have to scan it into my computer. Can I post a scan?

[Kirk Kief]

Amy, would you mind simply typing in some of the items listed in the magazine, instead of scanning?

[Joni Clark]

(I hope this is the right place, Kirk asked me to post this here, it's the link he sent me, I had sent this to him.)
This is a quote from the minister who started a email ministry called "SOUNDBITES" , followed by another quote. They are good for reading and remembering. Our daughter would have celebrated her 33 birthday last month.
Joni

"The death of a child is a unique loss, as today's quote reminds us. For those of you who have lost a child, you need no reminder of the impact it can have on parents, as well as other family members. For those who have never experienced this death "that is unlike any other," please be patient with and accepting of bereaved parents. They don't need your judgment over the way they are handling it. They don't need to hear "get over it." They need you to walk with them on this life-long journey of grief."
-- Rev. Dave Wilkinson

THE DEATH OF A CHILD

It is pointless to compare suffering. When pain becomes unbearable there is no longer a way to measure it. Yet, there is a loss -- a death -- that is unlike any other. This death is so unique, so unthinkable that everything in us cries out that it cannot be true. It is the death of our child. This loss involves a relationship so strong that it cannot end; a love so intense that it argues it should have been sufficient to protect the one who has died.

-- Sue Holtkamp, Ph.D., When the Bough Breaks


SOUND BITES is a free, five-day-a-week e-mail ministry in memory of Dustin Wilkinson, 1982-1998. Rev. Dave Wilkinson is founder and editor. SOUND BITES originates from First United Methodist Church in Green Bay, Wisconsin, USA. "The world is our parish."

[Amy Joy]

Being helpful and not harmful
The state of grief can be a very lonely place, particularly because many people simply don't know what to do or say to help those who are grieving. Unfortunately, the arbitrary offer of, "If there is anything I can do..." is simply not helpful mainly because when you are in the early days and weeks of grief you don't know what you need to help yourself. As with a newly postpartum family, bringing dinner or washing a load of clothes or dishes without even asking is much more helpful. When my daughter, Shiyanne, died my extended family fed and clothed her three brothers for a number of weeks, for which I am eternally grateful. I never would have asked for that.
The most helpful of all things we can offer someone who is grieving is an open and willing ear. Unfortunately, however, when most people ask, "How are you doing?" they aren't really pre-pared to hear the whole truth. It's usually just a polite question; when in reality the best way for someone who is grieving to work through the confusing labyrinth of grief is to talk about it over and over. If crying comes with that talking, she should be encour¬aged to let those tears flow and not be afraid to make someone else sad in the process—indeed the sadness is always there and sharing that sadness brings a little bit of relief.
The hardest grief to experience is the grief that everyone denies you should have. In the case of early miscarriages this can turn into depression, because as unprepared as we are to deal with death, we are even more unprepared to deal with the death

of a child yet to be born. Comments like, "Well you're young, you can have more children," or "At least you have your other children," figuratively twist the knife and deny the grief that is felt. Even well meaning cliches like, "There's a reason for everything," or "She's in a better place," (if the child suffered) can bring about an angry response or hurt feelings. It's important to choose our words carefully and non-judgmentally; or even better, to just listen and simply say, "I'm sorry."
In the long run the healing process is governed by the griever. It is a long and arduous journey that will continually change and resurface unexpectedly. Simply having a caring support network of family, friends and professionals is a crucial part of growing through that grief.

Do's and Don'ts for Family Friends and Professionals

Do's
•Do let your genuine concern and caring show.
•Do be available—to listen, run errands, help with the other
children, or whatever else seems needed at the time.
•Do say you are sorry about what happened to their child and
about their pain.
•Do allow them to express as much grief as they are feeling at
the moment and are willing to share.
•Do encourage them to be patient with themselves and not to
impose any shou/ds on themselves.
•Do allow them to talk about the child they have lost as much
and as often as they want to.
•Do talk about special, endearing qualities of the child they've
lost.
•Do give special attention to the child's brothers and sisters in
the months to come—they too are hurt and confused and in
need of attention which their parents may not be able to give
at this time.
•Do reassure them that they did everything that they could,
that the medical care their child received was the best or
whatever else you know to be true and positive about the
care given to their child.


•Don't let your own sense of helplessness keep you from
reaching out to a bereaved parent.
•Don't avoid them because you are uncomfortable—being
avoided by friends adds pain to an already intolerably painful
experience.
•Don't say you know how they feel—unless you have lost a
child yourself you probably don't know how they feel.
•Don't say "you ought to be feeling better" or anything else
which applies a judgment about their feelings.
•Don't tell them what they should feel or do.
•Don't change the subject when they mention their dead
child.
•Don't avoid mentioning the child's name out of fear of re¬
minding them of their pain—they haven't forgotten it.
•Don't try to find something positive—moral lesson, closer
family ties, etc., about the child's death.
•Don't point out that at least they have the other children-
children are not interchangeable; they cannot replace each
other.
•Don't say that they can always have another child—even if
they wanted to and could have another child, he would not
replace the child they've lost.
•Don't suggest that they should be grateful for their other
children—grief over the loss of one child does not discount a
parent's love and appreciation for their living children.
•Don't make any comments which in any way suggest that the
care given their child at or in the emergency room, hospital
or wherever was inadequate—parents are plagued by feeling
like they didn't do enough to prevent the tragedy.

Volume 16, Issue 1 I International Doula 117

[Cheryl Haggard]

I think this all needs to be in this section: http://www.nowisleep.com/forumdisplay.php?f=22

[JD Richardson]

That would have been so difficult to hear. I, too, would have been upset to have heard that comment. I would have had to really hold back from telling her she was blessed for not having experienced the difference between the two. Yes, losses hurt, and I understand that to many, pets are their "children". To say that to a grieving mother... unthinkable.

(((((((((( hugs )))))))))

[Mark Reimer]

I have really thought about this, and here is my take on it...REMEMBER, my take only...

After Maddux died, in February 2005, my female daschund that was 14 years old had to be put to sleep in March 2005. Then my male daschund that was 15 years old was killed by coyotes in August 2005. My point?

I don't sit around wondering what my dogs would be doing now if they were still alive. I don't sit around yearning for my lost pets, but I do for Maddux. Pets are animals, not your flesh and blood. They are not meant to be with us our lifetime.

After my dogs deaths, I went out and bought another dog to replace my lost pet. And REPLACE is the exact word. I love my pets as much as I loved my other pets, but it is a whole different kind of love. Yes, I mourned when they died, but I don't mourn anymore. My grieving is OVER!

I am the master, not their parent. They are here for my companionship. You CAN"T replace a child. Oh, sure, most of us can have ANOTHER child, but that child is NOT considered a replacement. You will love that new child, but it is a seperate love than the love of your lost child. I will grieve everyday for Maddux.

I am not saying that her grief isn't real, because it is. And it is far different, than our grief. Just like a person that grieves for a spouse...might say to us, "you don't know my grief..." And we don't. And I never hope to.

For some people, experiencing the death of a pet, this is the only grief they know. Let's hope it stays that way.

Cheryl,
first, aren't dachsunds the best pet? Okay, I might be a little biased. I miss Wesley. We had to put him to sleep too. You've got it exactly right. Pets can be replaced. Not children. We are masters of our pets, but not of our children. I don't have any children yet. But, that doesn't mean I don't want any, it's just that we physically can't right now due to medical issues. I don't know what pain a woman, or man for that matter, feels by loosing a child, but I have an idea of what it's like for a woman to not be able to get pregnant and desperately want to be. It's very hard. At times.

Loosing a child is NOT the same. Like I said, I haven't had any kids yet, but I'm not that ignorant to think that it could be the same.

[Cheryl Haggard]

I don't know what pain a woman, or man for that matter, feels by losing a child, but I have an idea of what it's like for a woman to not be able to get pregnant and desperately want to be. It's very hard. At times.

Losing a child is NOT the same. Like I said, I haven't had any kids yet, but I'm not that ignorant to think that it could be the same.


Mark,
Like I have always said, I only know my pain. I don't know your pain, or Erica's pain, or Estrella's pain. My pain is so deep, it is hard to imagine the depth of anothers pain.
Know that I will say a prayer for you and your wife, that you will both be blessed with a beautiful child of your own.

[George]

I've lost two dogs (as a married person) and 1 child. No comparison.

She's so lucky she doesn't know what it's like to lose a child. I probably would have replied with something snarky like, "I thought that too, until I lost a child. I'm so glad you don't know that they're not all alike."